There’s this guy, Chris Rosebrough, who has been preaching (loudly) that there’s something wrong with GLBT people. He apparently has a radio show, where he talks about what he calls love (but looks nothing like love to me).

I don’t want LGBT kids to be convinced they’re hated by God, or that there’s something wrong with them (us). I don’t want them to kill themselves because they can’t bear the shame. I don’t want him to have influence in the world.

Thank God, he doesn’t have to. We don’t have to believe him.

Love wins.

I don’t hate Chris. I’m not even angry with him. But I sure don’t like what he preaches.

Here’s the thing, though. I want us — LGBTs and allies — to be so loud and strong and unrelenting in our love that his message is drowned out, or better, just loses power until it shrinks to a tiny little mote, and disappears. *poof*. I want his ideas to be *funny*. Because they are just… so… ridiculous.

I want so many of us to be so loud and strong and unrelenting in love that an LGBT person can see the glow from wherever they stand. Hell… I want Chris to be able to see the glow, too.

Hey, Chris.

We love you. We recognize that you are a person, just like us, who wants to find the beauty in life, as we do. We don’t see beauty the way you do.

We don’t believe your message. We believe in love. We love you. We love each other. We love ourselves.

We are not wrong or evil or an abomination, and nothing you say can change that.


44 Comments on “Chris, we don’t believe you”

  1. Angela says:

    —————————
    I am adding this comment on New Years day, but dating it early, to put it at the top of the list.
    I’ve closed comments on this post.

    I said below that I’ve had mixed feelings about not moderating the comments, and it’s true. But I do want to caution folks. The comments that follow are not comforting. They’re angry, and difficult. Judgments are flying in all directions.

    Whoever you are, please don’t read them if you’re here for support. Find people to talk to instead. Send me an IM on gmail chat (angela.harms). Do something besides reading these comments, please.
    —————————

  2. Ken Silva says:

    “unrelenting in our love that his message is drowned out, or better, just loses power until it shrinks to a tiny little mote, and disappears.”

    Your problem is 1) it isn’t loving to affirm people in their sin, and 2) it’s not Chris’ message; it’s what the Word of God says.

  3. Jesse says:

    Thanks for this challenge, and for leading the way. In some of the xian circles with which I am still in touch, LGBT folks are forced into silence, shame, fear and pain. I feel a call to speak up, out, and into these communities, as you are doing, in clear and loving ways. Thanks again. Good post.

  4. Eric says:

    This is beautiful, Angela. Thanks for affirming again that love won, love wins, and love always will win.

  5. Jon says:

    Thanks for the post, Angela. There will always be those who say BS and claim it’s from God. I know that our God is Love and loves all, regardless of which orientation they were born with.

    Funny, do you realise the same arguments that are used today by folk like Ken and Chris were used by oponents to the anti-slavery and anti-segregation movements of bygone days? While the methods don’t change, our message must stay true to the truth that God is Love; all who hate can’t be hated but pitied because they can’t see the true Light that lights the way of all.

    Peace.

  6. Erica says:

    Nice post Angela! Glad I finally found your blog!

  7. Jonathan Elliot says:

    I guess I can choose to follow a) Ken Silva (above) who somehow try to proclaim that they are being loving or faithful to the word of god

    or

    b)

    Be “unrelenting in our love that his message is drowned out, or better, just loses power until it shrinks to a tiny little mote, and disappears.”

    Which one sounds more loving to you? I’m with b)

    Jonathan from Spritzophrenia 🙂

  8. iggy says:

    The difference between Ken Silva and the outlaw preachers is that Ken does not believe the Holy Spirit can do His work on people. This is not about affirming sin, it is about preaching Life through and by the Grace of Jesus Christ. It is about trust God to do what He said He would by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by the bitchiness of some fake pastor who loves to speak death and hate to others.

    2 Cor 3: 5. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant-not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8. will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9. If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10. For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! 12. Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.

    Ken Silva’s ministry is about condemnation and death… it is about the Law not about the new glorious ministry that brings life… It is anti-Christ, for in Christ we have life, not death.

    iggy

  9. Ken Silva says:

    Carlos,

    “Ken Silva’s ministry is about condemnation and death”

    Question: What color is the sky in your world?

  10. Jon says:

    The sky is blue.
    It is many, many shades of blue
    Sometimes obscured by fear filled clouds
    Sometimes filled with far reaching possibilities
    Always in every corner full of the glory of the One
    The creator of life
    The giver of all that we are and hope to be
    And the one who loves
    And loves
    And loves … Whose love is as all encompassing and brilliant as
    The sky.
    Thanks for reminding me of that Ken.

  11. Kimberly says:

    Lovely post Angela, thank you for lifting a voice of love amidst the cacophony of hate and fear.

    @Ken Silva – you are a hateful, little, ignorant man and you have my deepest pity for the dark world in which you live and create. May God’s true and everlasting love find you one day.

    You sister in Christ,
    Kimberly

  12. tragic_pizza says:

    Ken, it’s clear to me now: the truth scares you.

    I choose love. Thanks, Angela.

  13. Ken Silva says:

    Kimberly,

    “@Ken Silva – you are a hateful, little, ignorant man”

    O yes, I feel the love and non-judgmental accptance. Hypocrites.

    John,

    “Ken, it’s clear to me now: the truth scares you. I choose love.”

    O sure. Even John Shelbt Spong admits Scripture, i.e. the actual truth, condemns homosexual relations as sin.

    Y

  14. Kimberly says:

    Oh Ken, I thought truth telling was your brand of love…seems you may just be the hypocrite.

  15. Kimberly says:

    Ken,

    Your brand of truth is not Truth. Yours is tragically clouded by ignorance (what you actually do not know) and fear (based on the aforementioned ignorance). What makes you little is your apparent inability to grow in the Spirit. So my statement was not one of rejection or hate, a simple statement of the facts as you wear them on your sleeve. What ever fear is within you I sincerely hope that God will enter your heart and share the extravagant love of Christ with you so that the harm you bring the world will dissipate.

    Perhaps some reading might help (here is a good one – http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Bible-Homosexuality-ebook/dp/B004ASOY7I/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2), but more likely you need to really get to know some Christians who are gay and lesbian. When you allow the narratives of more of God’s children to enter your life you may actually be transformed into the loving person you so fear you will become.

    Praying for you Ken,
    K

  16. Ken Silva says:

    You know K, the one who is ignorant must be you: “I sincerely hope that God will enter your heart and share the extravagant love of Christ with you.”

    Perhaps you’re unaware that Jesus called me as one of His pastor-teachers. He has regenerate me and enter my heart prior to that call y’all.

    People’s personal words don’t trump what the Scriptures say, no matter how “loving” someone may claim to be. You should repent of being judgmental about me because you are far off from the truth concerning me.

  17. Angela says:

    Ken,

    I am right with you on the rethinking (“repent[ing] of”) judgment toward you. It’s not because it’s “far off from the truth” — I don’t even know how to apply truth value to judgments that we humans make up.

    The reason I want to rethink is that when I’ve judged you, I’ve hurt myself and the world around me.

    Love,
    Angela

  18. Kimberly says:

    Ken,

    I know very well who you are Ken and I am not being judgmental I am merely stating facts and praying, really praying for the love of God to open your heart. Your venom betrays your true nature. I have nothing to repent but love.

    K

  19. Angela says:

    — — —

    As things stand, I’m not moderating comments here. I have mixed feelings about this.

    In reply to all of you…

    I want you to know that I see you as a beloved child of God, and a person, just like me, who is doing the best you can to reach for the treasures we both long for — things like truth, love, beauty.

    This is true whether you’re
    >> hurting and angry
    >> saying you love everyone
    >> demanding that others love everyone
    >> telling someone they’re evil
    >> saying things that encourage suicide
    >> on a mass-murderering spree

    This is true, and it’s also true that I feel such anguish when we humans hurl judgments at one another. I have found another way to live. I so wish I knew how to share it.

    — — —

  20. Ken Silva says:

    John 1:12 is crystal clear that not everyone is a child of God.

  21. tragic_pizza says:

    Ken, John Shelby Spong isn’t God. Niether, by the way, is the Bible.

  22. Eric says:

    Ken, scripture is crystal clear that you, I, and all of us will be judged on our generosity and kindness to the least and marginalized in the world.

    The Bible says “I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat” not “I was hungry, and you told me about my sin” and “I was in prison, and you visited me” not “I was in prison, and you presented the truth of the gospel so I could be regenerated”.

    As far as I’m concerned, you are free to believe, based on your reading of scripture and your conscience, that the behavior of my beloved LGBT brothers and sisters is wrong. And I am a Christian who disagrees with you on this point.

    However, the Bible is not going to let your hateful words or behavior off the hook, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself of the defensibility of your position. The Bible condemns everything about your approach, and I weep for the hurt it causes, especially in the lives of vulnerable people.

    The charge given to you and me by Jesus himself is to care for, defend, and protect. Someday Jesus may remind you that he approached you as a lonely gay teenager, and ask you why you responded to him with hate and condemnation.

    For me, I’m going to continue to answer the call to love, so perhaps one more man will feel hope again, one more teenager will choose to go on living, one more woman will find wholeness and joy.

    Love wins. Love will always win.

  23. Ken Silva says:

    Eric,

    This is to judge me: “The charge given to you and me by Jesus himself is to care for, defend, and protect. Someday Jesus may remind you that he approached you as a lonely gay teenager, and ask you why you responded to him with hate and condemnation.”

    Yes, we are to care for, etc., and this includes loving someone enough to tell them the truth. How do you know I would respond to “a lonely gay teenager” with “hate and condemnation”?

    Answer: You don’t. The truth is, I have just such a gay niece, and she would tell you that the opposite is true of me. As would my gay friends; one of which literally said to me, “You act compassionately and non-judmentally as a Christian should.

    Better ask Jesus to forgive you of your libel concerning me.

  24. Gabrielle says:

    Everyone’s view on here is valid. Through dialogue, we can learn from each other and perhaps, begin to understand why someone believes differently.

    I have always had issues with people judging other people.
    But I realized that issue in itself was a judgement and gave me a sense of superiority! AHA!

    I am learning slowly to let it go. The person “judging” feels that way for a reason. I need to accept them and love them as I do anyone else.

    We are all human with egos, emotions, pain, desires.

    ps.
    I love Eric’s comment:
    “Love wins. Love will always win.”

  25. Jonathan Elliot says:

    My starting point is different. If the Bible says gay people are sinful, then the Bible is wrong.

    I’m uncomfortable with accusations of “you are like this” followed by crass self-justification: “No, I am not, you are libelling me.” I can’t imagine Jesus saying either.

    All that matters is whether we can love each other. Truth does not matter. Only love. (This statement would have made me uncomfortable when I was an evangelical. But being an evangelical just led to an obssession with sin and truth and doctrine, not love, for me.)

    I would rather be on the side of love.

  26. Jon says:

    Angela, you have a beautiful way if bringing things back to the centre. Thank you.

    “Lord, make me a channel of your peace” comes to mind. I think I’d better pray that prayer a lot more whenever I see comments by those I can’t for the life of me understand.

    Peace be with you all.

  27. Ken Silva says:

    “Lord, make me a channel of your peace”

    The only way to do that is to faithfully proclaim what Jesus/God has said in the Bible.

  28. Peter says:

    After stumbling across this blog compliments of Faceabook I have been lurking here for the past day watching the back and forth of posts and now feel compelled, after much thought and prayer, to contribute.

    Let me make this perfectly clear so I am not called a hypocrite. I do not claim to be all accepting or non-judgmental. Speaking truth to power requires making decisions about what is unjust, oppressive and hateful. It is imperative that those who intentionally cause harm are accountable for their actions. If they can not take the first step and find within themselves the source of pollution (as we all have) then they are unable to grow in the Spirit. Naming the harm is about sorting the wheat from the weeds, the sheep from the goats.

    Angela, Eric, Jon, Kimberly, Gabrielle, tragic_pizza, Jonathan you are the wheat and Ken you are the weed.

    Angela,

    Yours is a beautiful, gentle and faithful world view. Your offer of love without restriction is indeed following the call of Jesus. I truly appreciate your heart and mind, though I am afraid the world in which we live asks us to speak bold truth to power. You have most certainly spoken truth by telling LGBT youth that they are loved by God. I am glad you love Chris and I too can love Chris while (as you did) calling his actions and words wrong. Even as we offer our open arms of the love so too we must not stop being a voice calling out in the wilderness. If we do not stand up boldly for justice, calling evil out when we see it – naming it plainly – then we let the evil win. Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi and Jesus did not refrain from clearly articulating wrong, calling out individuals who were speaking and behaving counter to God’s love. Jesus did clear the temple of those who sought profit within the sacred walls – lashing out at those exploiting God’s people for their own gain. This notion that everyone is right in their own view leaves sources of oppression in power. When someone holds a world view or theology that causes suffering, forced separation from family and God and even bodily harm or death – that view, no matter how tolerant you want to be – is evil.

    Gabrielle,

    Though I know you mean to be loving and compassionate, everyone’s view on here is not valid. Ken’s view is wrong, ego-maniacal and anti-loving and therefore anti-Christ. You are sweet, but at some point we must speak up and call wrong for what it is.

    Kimberly,

    You are right to call Ken out, and to pray for him but you do not have to apologize for speaking truth. Your words appear as if you are sorry for standing in right judgment of Ken. Don’t ever hold back when you seek to counter evil.

    tragic_pizza

    You are right – “John Shelby Spong isn’t God. Niether, by the way, is the Bible.” Too many people have turned theologians, creeds, denominations and even themselves into God. The Bible is most certainly not God either, merely human words depicting our faithful struggle to point to God as found in Christ.

    Now Ken,

    Not that I believe any words but your own matter to you…

    As for your brand of love “Yes, we are to care for, etc., and this includes loving someone enough to tell them the truth.” Let me turn my love toward you and tell you the truth. You bring pain and evil to the world. Your theology and the way you have chosen to live it out is hateful, not loving, and is the source of much pain. Your sloppy reading of scripture, your self aggrandizement, your blasphemy will in the end be shown for the darkness it is. You are the Pharisee, the Sadducee that Jesus spoke to and against for how they have missed the point by idolizing the law rather than worshiping God BY loving and caring for the marginalized. So focused were they on condemnation that they could not reach out and lift a dying neighbor from a ditch. Praise be to God that you can still repent.

    Perhaps you are right in a few things you say, such as not all are children of God. If you care to look at scripture past your cherry picked texts that you use to only support your narrow world view, then you might find that you son are not currently among the sheep that God calls. Matthew 25:31-46 is a nice start, oh and John 3:17 (I know you prefer 3:16 and may not have gotten that far). Oh yeah, and even Paul – Romans 8:38-39. Are you wearing clothes of two fabrics? Have you eaten bacon this year? How about shrimp? Have you stoned to death a child for disobedience? Any divorced friends that you are not condemning as loudly as LGBT folks? Not cherry picking eh?

    To Eric you said “You don’t. The truth is, I have just such a gay niece, and she would tell you that the opposite is true of me. As would my gay friends; one of which literally said to me, “You act compassionately and non-judgmentally as a Christian should.” IF this is even remotely true then perhaps they have never read a word you’ve written or heard you speak? You are about as judgmental as anyone claiming the name Christian could be, don’t pretend to be otherwise when you sling your personal(not God’s) judgment at everyone who does not think, pray and worship like you (you are particularly judgmental of the emergent crowd eh?).

    You have made great noise about being called by God, about being regenerated and a pastor-teacher “Perhaps you’re unaware that Jesus called me as one of His pastor-teachers. He has regenerate me and enter my heart prior to that call y’all.” Just because you (or the SBC) think you’ve been called does not make it so. Even the sociopath thinks many things that are not real and true. I wonder if you regard ALL pastor-teachers as legitimately called? Women? LGBT affirming pastors? Me? No? Guess what, there are many faithful and gentle Christians who do not believe your call is valid and that the voice you’ve heard is none other than your own. If not for how dangerous you are you would be worthy of nothing more than mockery. You may be destined to play your role as a hate-monger and remain stagnated in your own putrid swamp of ego but there are those of out here who will call you out for what you are – a weed.

  29. Ken Silva says:

    Peter,

    “Angela, Eric, Jon, Kimberly, Gabrielle, tragic_pizza, Jonathan you are the wheat and Ken you are the weed.”

    You have this exactly backward, which is the problem here in the first place.

  30. tragic_pizza says:

    Thank you, Peter.

  31. Jeff S. says:

    I think this Huffington Post article by Candace Chellew-Hodge is quite helpful in understanding the insanity of debating the likes of Ken Silva and Chris Rosebrough: Why Gays and Lesbians Should Never Argue Scripture

  32. Jeff S. says:

    Well spoken, Peter. Thank you.

  33. Kimberly says:

    It is rockin’ cool of you Ken to prove Peter’s point.

  34. Ken Silva says:

    “Why Gays and Lesbians Should Never Argue Scripture”

    That’s easy, because they can’t; Scripture couldn’t be clearer that 1) Marriage is defined by Jesus/God as between a man and a female.

    And 2) all sexual relations outside of that marriage covenant is the sin of sexual immorality, so 3) homosexual relations will always be sin.

    You’re welcome. Simple, and rockin’ cool of our Creator to make it so.

  35. Angela says:

    Hi, Peter,

    I appreciate your wanting to support folks on here. I think I’d like to clarify some things, because from what I’ve read, you misunderstood me.

    I am glad you love Chris and I too can love Chris while (as you did) calling his actions and words wrong

    I hope I didn’t call his actions and words wrong. I hope I said that I’m troubled, saddened, heartbroken. I’ll say more about that below.

    When someone holds a world view or theology that causes suffering, forced separation from family and God and even bodily harm or death – that view, no matter how tolerant you want to be – is evil.

    From here, it looks like we all hold a world view that causes suffering, forced separation… even… death.”

    If you are going to call his view evil, will you also call your own evil? The times you have sneered at someone who did something you didn’t agree with, lost a friendship because you couldn’t empathize with one another, let someone freeze to death because you couldn’t face them, couldn’t bring yourself to give away your favorite sleeping bag?

    Have you lost your temper, resulting in someone feeling completely broken inside?

    I don’t know about you, but I have done all these things.

    I am taught by Jesus, Buddha, other teachers and my own soul’s voice, when I listen, that there is another way. That is the way I choose.

    I don’t ask anyone else to choose this path, but if you (any of you) become curious and would like my help, I am available to talk about it.

    Love,
    Angela

  36. Jonathan Elliot says:

    I happen to agree with Ken:

    “Scripture couldn’t be clearer that … all sexual relations outside of [the male-female] marriage covenant is the sin of sexual immorality”

    You guys can keep arguing about what Scripture says. Maybe I’m wrong. The fact is, i don’t care.

    I know from the people I love, from reading deeply and having many gay, lesbian and transgender friends, that none of these ways of being are wrong. There is simply no rational reason why they are morally wrong. I choose to follow my reason and experience, and if it contradicts the Bible then so be it.

    Happily, people who continue to oppose gay love will become more and more irrelevant as the years pass. Most of society are already accepting of gay people. In the end the church will be too. It’s just sad that once again, it will take the rest of society to take the lead before they follow.

  37. Peter says:

    Ken you really are intentionally biblically shallow (or willfully ignorant). No, a bible based marriage is NEVER exclusively defined between a just a male and female. (Please try to maintain your usage – man woman or male and female would be correct usage).

    There are many configurations of marriage in the Bible (KJV or otherwise).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

    You clearly did not read, or care (as I knew you would not) the rest of my post which only serves to prove your own ego, rather than our Creator, is driving your zeal.

  38. Ken Silva says:

    Jonathan,

    “I choose to follow my reason and experience, and if it contradicts the Bible then so be it.”

    Certainly people should be free to live like that; however, that wouldn’t be allowed for the Christian is all.

    The regenerated Christian is to always live in subjection to God’s Word, regardless of reason and experience.

  39. Ken Silva says:

    Peter,

    I couldn’t care less what you personally wrote/believe when it contradicts Jesus.

    You would be the one who appears to be Biblically obtuse. I suggest you read Matthew’s eyewitness testimony where the Creator, Jesus, defines marriage precisely as I outlined above.

    And Pharisees came up to Him and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that He Who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” (Matthew 19:3-7, ESV)

    It’s patently obvious that Jesus has just defined marriage as a male [man] to a female [woman], which is precisely how the men to whom He was speaking understood it.

  40. Gabrielle says:

    I think I’m having one of those wonderful AHA moments from all these comments and replies.

    btw: In reference to weeds.. dandelions are considered a weed, yet I find them beautiful and they give me joy.

    Thank you, Peter, for your view about loving yet speaking out against “evil”.. something to think about.

    and, Jonathan, good point about agreeing with Ken’s scripture comment.

  41. tragic_pizza says:

    I’m always amused that Ken will shart all over others’ blogs, while never having the courage to allow them on his own.

  42. Ken Silva says:

    John,

    “Ken will shart all over others’ blogs, while never having the courage to allow them on his own.”

    *yawn*

  43. Peter says:

    Angela,

    I am surprised that you think I am sneering, that choice of vocabulary comes across as judgmental. It seems you have misunderstood (or made a snap judgment about) me. I am not sneering at Ken or anyone here, rather I was speaking plainly and clearly about what is true of a man who actively seeks to do harm in the name of Christ. Truly he is nothing short of blasphemous.

    I am not sure from where this tangent originates — “let someone freeze to death because you couldn’t face them, couldn’t bring yourself to give away your favorite sleeping bag?” Though I am sorry if this has been part of your path.

    I have never been short on empathy and have never let a person freeze to death, turned my back on a friend or failed to “give away my favorite sleeping bag.” I have been on the receiving end of these slights and worse. I can empathize with a person but empathy will only take me so far if I allow myself (and others) to be annihilated by those (like Ken) who make no secret of their desire and intent to cause harm. Though I know (and claimed in my post) that we are all polluted and fall short of what God hopes for us, I in no way will claim my striving for justice and truth are evil. I have for decades walked the path of open arms and deep dialogue and with people like Ken it is always tragically and dangerously fruitless.

    I truly feel you mean to be loving and hear that you have found a higher consciousness and only hope to share what you’ve found but it seems (surprisingly again) that you have a bit of an air of superiority with your repeated offer to teach us this path you have found. I will choose to assume the better about you and dismiss the prickly sensation of condescension. Thank you for the way you choose to walk in this world. I am quite content on my path speaking truth to depraved power. While I sense you are truly standing in the Light, I too feel clear that God’s light shines on me as I seek justice for those whose voices are suffocated by the likes of Ken. I will bow out now and wish you all grace and peace in the year ahead.

    Your brother in God’s great and mysterious universe,
    Peter

  44. Ian Mayes says:

    HAPPY NEW YEARS EVERYBODY!!! WOO HOO!!!

    *HUGS EVERYONE IN THE CONVERSATION*